How to have difficult conversations, Well - w. Michelle Thompson

How do you see conflict?

For me, Jon, until 10 years ago I saw conflict as

... something to avoid
... a sign that you were angry (or a jerk)
... the thing that people with bad relationships did

I know, not a super helpful approach (I share my learnings and more here)

My guest, Michelle Thompson, reframed how I see conflict - and will for you too.

She helped me see conflict is

... something to engage in
... a sign you care about the person
... the thing healthy people do to make things healthy

Michelle, Sr. Director of Coaching and Consulting at Concordia-Irvine shares:

• How conflict done well can actually bond us together
• How engaging in conflict can increase empathy (MUST hear story!)
• How to balance relationships and results in tough conversations
• Why conflict is needed to create healthy, high performing teams

Check out this episode, and confidently engage in the next hard conversation.

Find more about Michelle at:

Michelle Thompson | michelle.thompson@cui.edu
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/growthcoachmichelle
Concordia | https://www.cui.edu/

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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.

Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.

For more information visit https://leadwell.com

The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.

In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.

Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to the Lead Well podcast, the podcast where we interview mission-driven leaders who are doing it well. We ask them what they're doing and how they're doing it so that you can lead your organization and your people well. How many of us believe that conflict is bad? How many of us believe that conflict is bad, that it's unhealthy and that if there is conflict then things aren't going as well as they could be? Today's guest is organizations, to help them find and build meaningful connections and achieve their highest potential. She does this as an executive coach, as a consultant, as the senior director of executive coaching and consulting for Concordia University, Irvine. She's ICF certified, she is a dear friend and she is also getting a doctorate in what we are talking about today. So let's jump into our conversation with Michelle, Michelle Thompson, one of my absolute dearest friends. Thank you so much for joining us on the Leadwell podcast.

Speaker 2 1:30

John, it is so good to be here. Thanks for the honor of spending time with you.

Speaker 1 1:36

I don't know about all that, but what I do know is that I have a huge problem, and it's between you and me. Honestly, it's a conflict, and we need to get this resolved and I'm totally joking, except for the fact that maybe you do need to come to the house and have dinner with us, and it's starting to hurt my feelings, and so I need you to make that happen.

Speaker 2 1:57

So may I just make a suggestion.

Speaker 1 2:01

Please, please.

Speaker 2 2:03

It helps if I'm invited over.

Speaker 1 2:06

Oh, you're telling me that that's the real issue, that we just haven't put the invite in the mail yet right like this is nothing personal.

Speaker 1 2:13

There's just not been an invitation yet all right, okay, so obviously not a real conflict, but a real dinner. That has to happen, but that is where we're going today, because I I know that you get this, michelle, I get this all the time that conflict, especially in the workplace I mean out of the workplace too it's messy, it's hard, there's a lot wrapped up in it and it is one of the things that is most critical for us to do well, to have healthy, thriving relationships and organizations. So what is going on with conflict and why do we get all kind of worked up in and around having to jump into tough conversations?

Speaker 2 2:53

John, I'm so glad you brought this up, and it is fun to pretend that there's conflict between us, but for some people, conflict just isn't a laughing matter. It really brings a lot of emotion and struggle and worry inside of them, a lot of anxiety and's a thing to be managed and dealt with. In fact, I just like to say that conflict is something that you move through with the courage to correct a situation or having the courage to confront a topic that you're going to move forward in, and too many times we put all this pressure on I have to get it right or I have to be on the right side of an issue, and that is what causes the tension for us within conflict.

Speaker 1 3:55

Okay, something that I practiced growing up, that I, if left to my own devices, might want to be right on certain matters, and that all of those things. What you're telling me is that's part of what gets it to where I really do have something that I got to come talk to you about, michelle. It's heavy, it's bothering me, and now I've played out 17 different scenarios in my head. I'm sweating, my pulse is racing and I just I can't bring myself to to go through it, and so I choose the uncomfortableness for the entire rest of the relationship and fake smiles because of those feelings. Right, that's what you're saying because of those feelings.

Speaker 2 4:45

Right, that's what you're saying. Absolutely, you're either picking that I will fake it and just push through it and ignore it, or you become a person who will protest against it and the anger that you have builds up walls. That actually destroys the relationship with the other person. And so what you're talking about is all this tension and emotional the stories. I loved it how you said I came up with 17 stories in my head about this. I totally do that. I have so many conversations in my head and I say brilliant things Like I don't know about you, but I say like I have the best comebacks to people in my head all the time.

Speaker 2 5:20

And what is happening is there's actually a scientific neuroscience reason for that. It's because a part of our brain is working this topic over and over and over again it's the amygdala. The amygdala is the part of our brain that has our fight, flight and freeze reaction. So it takes in information and it quickly wants to make a decision on whether this is good flight and freeze reaction. So it takes in information and it quickly wants to make a decision on whether this is good, bad. What should we do? And so when something feels uncomfortable, all of a sudden, what you just talked about doing is that you're going to kind of flight from it. You're just going to go away from it in the conversations and you're just going to act like nothing's happening or that nothing's wrong. Other people do the fight and they want to get angry and you say what's wrong? Why is there tension between us? Like nothing, nothing. But you know that there's this hard hard part. You know this line like with the I'm fine, it's fine, right.

Speaker 2 6:24

Like I'm fine, there's that tension.

Speaker 1 6:26

It'm fine. It's fine Right Like I'm fine there's that tension.

Speaker 2 6:33

It's good, it's all fine. And then there's the phrase thing where people will just shut down and just be quiet. The problem with that is is we have now given something control of ourselves internally. That is now also defining the relationship that we have with another person, and that is harmful, because the conflict actually is never about the other person. It might be about the other person's opinion, it might be about the other person's goals or direction, but the conflict is typically about a thing that can be addressed. It's not about the human before us you because I'm looking at you.

Speaker 1 7:26

I feel like it is about you because of something that you have done or something that you have said. But what I think I just heard you say is that it's actually a reframing, that my problem's not with you. But I may have an issue with something that you have done or something that happened in between the two of us, or maybe even happened outside of us, in a different team, inside of our organization, but it's how would I say that better to kind of bring everyone that's listening into it. It's not about the person. Help us there.

Speaker 2 7:57

Yeah, it's not. It's not about the person. The human before you is a special creation, a unique creation, a person with feelings and heart and hopes and dreams and goals. Just like you, they have hopes and dreams and goals, and just as you don't want to be attacked for those things, that human should not be attacked for those things. And so we, when we start this part back to your example of I have a tension and now I've had 17 stories go on in my head and I get mad and I'm frustrated, and there's all this tension and conflict and I choose not to go forward and deal with it, and so I run away and I just smile and act like everything is okay. That is incredibly unhealthy for you to do, so stop doing that, john please, let's be real.

Speaker 1 8:49

You and I have known each other for over a decade and you have coached, advised, counseled, corrected I can keep coughing and adding things that you have done for me. This ain't our first rodeo in this, and this is something that that you really guided me through years ago and and how to approach this in a way where I could feel as though I could tell the kind hard truth, where I could engage to reframe this as this is what healthy relationship looks like, not avoiding it. So I I promise, when at my best I am, I'm going in with the courage that you call us to.

Speaker 2 9:29

That's awesome, John. You've been a great student. I'm very proud of you.

Speaker 1 9:34

I'm not graduating yet. I'm still following you around and you still have to teach me. So I'm still the karate kid. I get to follow you because you are the master. So here's the thing If you don't, oh, go ahead. Sorry, I cut you off.

Speaker 2 9:48

I was just going to say what you've learned, what you just talked about learning, then, is being able to come out of your amygdala. We talked about the amygdala. We talked about these reactions that actually create an unhealthy relationship with the other person or other people, and it creates a tension that's unhealthy with inside of us. And what you were talking about is you learned to speak truth and to talk to other people, and what happens is we, when we feel these feelings of I need to run away from this, I just want to ignore it or I want to fight against it, I want to get mad and just push against that person. We need to take a deep breath and just push against that person. We need to take a deep breath, take the pause and say to ourselves what's really happening here?

Speaker 2 10:41

What happens to me times is we react without pondering what's really the issue. If we can remember, okay, I feel mad at this person, but it's not actually the person. What about? What is being represented? What's the issue at hand that I need to actually be looking at to be able to confront that piece, confronting the yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 11:06

So that's the. That's the question, that that helps frame it and it's not the first time that you've told me that one and I think what's the issue? Right, and I've narrow in and figure out. Okay, the issue is that you talked behind my back. The issue is that you blew up at me in a phone call. The issue is that I feel as though I was misled because it didn't seem that all of this information matched up with this information. Whatever the issue might be, what do I do next? Right, I feel like I have that, but what am I going to do inside of this besides just walking in and being like Michelle? Here's the issue.

Speaker 2 12:02

I think you lied to me. So what's wrong with that?

Speaker 1 12:07

With me saying that I just put it back on the individual, not the issue.

Speaker 2 12:13

So let me tweak that just a little bit for you.

Speaker 2 12:17

If you if you had felt like I lied to you, for you to come in and say, hey, michelle, this incident happened the other day and, as I've been thinking about it, I really was wrestling with some discomfort within myself and I realized what happened is I feel like you lied to me, which then made me feel like I was losing trust in you, and I really think that I want to resolve that, because the sense of the feeling of the line and the loss of trust is now the issue and the piece at hand. You haven't said something about Michelle. You're a liar. You didn't call me a liar, right? You talked about your experience of the moment. Is, you felt, lied to? That was your experience at the moment.

Resolving Conflict Through Understanding and Curiosity

Speaker 1 13:12

So, outside of you and I kind of going back and forth, those of us that know you know that you get called into these all the time and that you have a great way of delivering truth with a big smile and all of us walk away and are like that was the best ever. I think I have a lot of work to do, but that was wonderful. So tell us about a time where there was an issue and you got to help a person, a couple of people, an entire organization and just walk through that in a way that looked and resulted in a healthy relationship and thriving workplace.

Speaker 2 13:50

I would love to. I got called in one time. I got a phone call from a supervisor and supervisor said I have two people in my office that need to be working together and they cannot work together. They fight all day long. They take turns coming into my office complaining about the other one. It is at the point that if this does not get resolved, I'm going to have to let one of them go because it's harming just even our office culture. Not only are they not getting their work done, the office culture is not working. And I said, well, good grief, I can't pass up this opportunity. That sounds like a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 14:28

Man. But, michelle, I'm just sitting here and thinking how many of us are listening to how you've set this story up and it's like well, is she about to start talking about me? Is she about to start talking about my workplace? I don't actually remember when you came in, but two people need to work together. Struggling to work together. Our inability to work together is now impacting others.

Speaker 1 14:53

And all of a sudden we start to see how this becomes more than just one piece of conflict between two people. It's a cultural problem in an organization. So I don't believe you're talking about me or any of the people listening, but let's keep going. So you get called in.

Speaker 2 15:10

You're super excited which is weird, but that's okay, I'll reassure you, it's not about you. But and I did I walked in there and and here's the other thing to remember too is these are both talented people, yet one of them is about to have to be gone because of what they've done to the culture. And so I walk in and I sit down with both of them and I start with one and say tell me what's happening. And she begins to tell me all the things. And look, and I said look at the other person. And she begins to tell the other person all the things that she's done wrong, that she can't stand about her, that how she's micromanaging her, how she's not trusting her, how she's. It's just a list of things. And it's you, you, you. You make life miserable. You are doing these things you are doing, you are making me look bad, you are trying to take over my job. You don't trust me.

Speaker 2 16:06

And I said to the other person so that person was kind of in the fight mode, the other person was a little bit more in the flight mode doing the. Well, I just, I just try to put up with it. I'm the martyr here and I'm just trying to make life good for you and I don't understand why you see this as a problem. I mean, it was watching it happen in front of me. It truly was a moment of am I sitting in this real space of listening to people say these things out loud that I know actually goes on inside of people's heads? But it was like those 17 conversations in real life coming and they were attacking each other and I thought to myself I'm not sure what I'm going to do here to help bridge this, because this is like they're talking not just necessarily to each other or at each other, they're even talking past each other. And so what I realized all of a sudden is, I thought to myself, I'm like do they know each other? Do they know about each other? Do they know who each other is? And I said can we just pause for a second? And I said I would love for you.

Speaker 2 17:14

I looked at one of them and said I would love for you to tell me a story about when you were eight years old. And she told this amazing story of what her life was like and actually some of the challenges that were happening in her life at that time and how she had to recover from them. And then I looked at the other person and I said tell me a story about when you were eight years old. And now, all of a sudden, this person comes up with a story from their life and their experiences that really had some hardship to it also and some unique circumstances that were very different than the other persons.

Speaker 2 17:51

But I watched both of them and their faces just soften. It was literally like a hardness melting off of each of them. And I said what did the two of you learn about that? And the one looked at the other and said I can't believe you had to grow up in that. And the other one said oh my goodness, I can't believe you had to grow up in that. And the other one said oh my goodness, I can't believe you had to grow up in that.

Speaker 2 18:14

And then, all of a sudden, we started this discussion of knowing each other's humanity or recognizing that Now I see why you might behave this way and why you might behave that way, because when you were younger that was your coping mechanism. So now I can appreciate you as a human. I can say I get it, let's not use our defense mechanisms. Let's say that in this situation, we can choose how we want to respond. And they restarted figuring out how to respond differently to each other. The crazy part is I walked out of that meeting a little bit like okay, that felt a little surreal, but I also walked away going I don't know if that did anything. And so I came back two weeks later to do a follow-up. I was going to do a follow-up with each of them individually and together.

Speaker 2 19:08

And they both showed up in the room together at first and said we just want to tell you that ever since that meeting, we have been totally fine, everything is great. And I said, if I go to your supervisor, is that what your supervisor will say? And they're like we think so. Went to the supervisor and supervisor's like yeah, I don't know what happened two weeks ago, but I get to keep two really great employees now.

Speaker 1 19:31

Man. I just sitting here kind of overwhelmed at thinking, when we see the person with whom we have a problem, all of a sudden both of the people can go work on the problem and that's powerful. Michelle, outside of identifying the issue you just laid out kind of the meat of what's going on in there is that relationship piece sitting there and they don't get the pleasure of having you sit there and mediate. How can they work some of that into their conflict resolution when stuff comes up? And at home at work with friends, family, colleagues?

Speaker 2 20:22

It's a great. It's a great question. So one of the things that I tell people to do first and foremost is to take yourself out of it, because what we do is we hear things, we feel things and we make it all about us at first, and so it's kind of like a shield up experience for us and I say, well, the first thing you have to do is go, wait a second. This may not all be about me, there's other factors in this, so don't make it all about you, there's nothing to defend here. I always tell people put your feet on the ground and remember that the ground is there, it's stable and you are grounded. You're not you're you're, you are not going to fall, apart from whatever's about to happen next, because I think some people think that they're going to just crash and burn when they feel like that tension of the conflict. So it's not about you. You're grounded, You're stable, you're okay.

Speaker 2 21:20

The second part, then, is get curious. Get more curious about the other person's side and get curious about what the story is that they're hearing and telling themselves. So, john, you used the example a little bit ago of saying, michelle, you lied to me and now it's breaking trust and I could shield up and say well, you know what's he thinking? He doesn't know me. And I could get all in the past. I would have gotten all like high and mighty and told you a few things, but instead I become. I become curious, I become curious.

Speaker 1 22:05

Which could need to be happening right Like, let's just be real. I might deserve that, but for the sake of our illustration.

Speaker 2 22:15

You might deserve it and you might get it, but I need proof and reason to give it to you that way. So I become curious.

Speaker 1 22:24

What I think I heard in that beautiful snarky saying in there was actually some really helpful truth is that there might still be a time coming where there is an opinion or a decision or advice that is levied right, hey, this is what needs to happen, but not first right. And a lot of the times we jump to that Like I just got to let people know, boom, right and so. But that's what you're saying when you say get curious.

Speaker 2 22:53

Yes, absolutely, because I can say to you John, tell me specifically what happened that gave you the, what gave you the information that that I might have lied to you and you might say I'm the one that's coming.

Speaker 1 23:10

You're supposed to take care of my conflict and resolve it. Now you're making me work.

Speaker 2 23:15

No, no, no Conflict has to happen within you know more than one relationship.

Speaker 1 23:20

Yeah, we have. Another key critical piece is is it's not. It's it's not like you and I are playing, you know, know, hot potato here it's. It's this thing where we're trying to do it together and you know, hot potato meaning I don't want to touch it. Less ping pong, being more of this is something that we're trying to keep this rally going so that we can get to where we want to go.

Speaker 2 23:51

Exactly, exactly, and so you can say something about. Well, michelle, when you said that Taylor Swift was the best concert you'd ever gone to, I really feel like you lied to me, because I know that you've been to some other great concerts.

Speaker 2 24:11

You've been with my band in the local coffee shop and now I'm just yes, this is not a strong illustration, but it's okay for us right now and I could say to you I might be able to give clarity to this and say John, you know what I that wasn't meant to be a lie and I was moving really fast and I can completely understand that maybe the way I said it didn't come out the way I meant it to and so I just want to apologize for that.

Speaker 2 24:47

And what do we need to do? Like can you accept that from me and and take that like you? Now you've heard my part of the story, you've heard what my intention was, what my, what I was bringing to the table, and we go back, like you said, the ping pong. We go back and forth until we understand the intention, the core, until we know that we have resolved the topic at hand, where you either feel like I lied to you and now you're realizing that I haven't, or you might still feel like I lied to you and you get. You finally come to this piece of I've said my piece and nothing else is going to happen or change, and I'm going to have to live with and accept that in that conflict.

Speaker 1 25:39

But ultimately we want the relationship to be okay and and for you, for you and I, for that scenario. Right, it was a, it was a relationship based problem. Uh, that is what felt, like it was broken. We've been teed up the trust so you have given us first going in and identifying what's the issue, and then we've spent a lot of time in the middle on how do I relate to the individual and how can I keep this focused in something where the individual, the humans involved, are working together. Not everybody's going to necessarily work towards the relationship, but a healthier relationship would be the outcome. What is that next question that you have for us After we do? What's the issue? We got that middle, but there's still something I got to think about when I'm going into these things and what's that question that you have for people?

Speaker 2 26:35

I think that question that I would have for people is what do I want the outcome to be in this, what? What's the desired outcome here and how do we accomplish that desired outcome? Now, I would suggest that the top priority in any desired outcome is protect relationship and protect the human, protect the other person's humanity, protect their integrity. We don't tear people down and then we work hard at protecting the relationship and the connection between us, and then the desired outcome might be that we agree to move in a direction that I chose to move, that you weren't sure if you wanted to go in, if we were having a conflict over a decision, but then I also decide.

Speaker 1 27:34

Can you walk us through a little bit more of that one? Because now I'm, how do we both get on the same page around that one, right, if I have a different desired outcome, you might be coming in with a different perspective and a different desired outcome. So help me and help everybody kind of build those into kind of getting to where the desired outcome is achieved or where a new desired outcome is built based on what I understand.

Speaker 2 28:02

Yeah, this is where things like compromise come in to play or negotiation comes into play in a relational way, because the most important thing for me, actually, if you and I have different opinions, is that I'm heard.

Speaker 2 28:19

That I'm heard and I know that you know how I feel or what I think, and even if we are going to go with your decision, you still respect me at the end of the day because I spoke up for what I believed and that I was able to bring it to the table, and you respect me as a human.

Speaker 2 28:41

If I have any sense that I haven't been heard, that I haven't been heard, or now you think less of me because you didn't agree with my idea, that strips away part of my being. It strips away part of my self-esteem, it brings self-doubt into play and that is what will hinder the relationship between you and I and, at the end of the day, it's always about the relationship that we want to save. If we are talking about a topic and we're at the topic and you're seeing it as red and I'm seeing it as blue and we can't find a way to compromise, for it to be purple, that that might be an ideal thing for us to fight to shade of purple in there, um, but if I've been heard and you say to me, michelle, I really think this is the direction we're going to need to go. As long as I've heard that, I'm okay going that direction.

Speaker 1 29:43

And how much does that in you play out to other people in terms of kind of our needing to be heard, to be valued, to be participatory in decisions, especially things that impact our work, our lives, our relationships?

Speaker 2 30:05

relationships. Yeah, this is every human being.

Speaker 2 30:09

This is a basic need for every human being. I don't care what type of house you live in, I don't care what economic status you are, I don't care what country, what your background is all of those things it always comes down to. As human beings we have a heart's desire to be seen and to be loved and to be connected. It's how we are wired, and so if I can honor those things with whoever I'm with, then everything else becomes just overflow out of that relationship. Those are the things that I protect and I don't let get damaged. And if I do damage them, it is my responsibility to go back and say I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 31:06

So take it to someone who's listening, that's leading a team and they know that they've been avoiding, uh, conflict not intentionally, but for one's own comfort or for artificial harmony and and they need to go have a with a team member, or maybe they need to have a one-up kind of level up conversation with their leader. And now the stakes are feeling just a little bit higher because compensation could be involved. My employment, I at least, feel like it's on the line every time I'm getting ready to go have one of these conversations. Help that person navigate it and tell them why it is so critical for them, regardless of if it's a team member or a team leader, that they have to talk to.

Speaker 2 31:57

Yeah, this is one way that you do it is you become more vulnerable and you set the stage when I come to your house for dinner, you're going to set a table. I can't. I can't wait either. You're going to set a table so that we have a place to sit down and to eat and to do this, you know, to have our conversation and all those things. So if I, if I need to go in and have a conversation with someone, especially if I have been avoiding having conflict or a hard conversation with someone, I can go in and say I'm coming in, john, to have a discussion with you, and I want to tell you that I'm a little bit uncomfortable about having this discussion. I but I believe that it's really right for me to have this discussion because I want our relationship to be one of connection and for us to get really good things done here, and if I don't face this awkward conversation, we're going to miss that opportunity. Are you okay with me trying this new skill that I'm going to put out here and just being honest with the person? Like I'm going to do something, I'm uncomfortable with it and you know what I might? I might mess it up a little bit for the first few times.

Speaker 2 33:20

If you are a leader and you go in and say that to one of your, one of your direct reports, one of your direct reports, they will sit there dumbfounded because they will not know what to do with the amount of respect you have just given them. If you go and do that to a supervisor, that supervisor is going to be dumbfounded because they are going to be in awe of the courage that you have to come in and give voice to something that you think is valuable and important and that's only going to build trust with them. All of these things start building trust when you have those conversations. So go, set the table. Set the table and say I don't know how this is going to go. Then that table is set and then you serve the meal, and that serving that meal is.

Speaker 2 34:13

This is where I'm struggling. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm thinking. I own the feelings, I own the thoughts, I own the reactions that I'm having. I never say you made me feel this way. I feel this way when you snap back at me. I feel this way when I don't have a clear list of expectations and then I am held responsible for something. I think that I am not doing a good job when I hear these types of words. So you're aligning your response to a certain action. You're not attributing it to the person love the set the table analogy.

Speaker 1 35:07

I think about and use that same type of analogy and say you know, when you're on a date, it's great to sit across from each other and you get the salt and pepper in the middle. It's awkward on a date if you're the two people sitting on the same side in the booth looking out at everybody else. However, in conflict, when we set the table and we put the issue in the middle, if we miss the issue at all, it's going to bounce off and hit the other person and so, in conflict, we do actually sit on the exact same side of the table, knee to knee, shoulder to shoulder, and we both point ourselves at the issue, just like you are saying, so that if and when I do in fact miss, I'm not missing at the person. I'm missing trying to get to the problem, but doing it in a way where I'm working with the person.

Speaker 2 35:56

You got it, that's. That's absolutely what it is. And sometimes it's okay, in the midst of that, if you're sitting at the table there on that same site to look at the person and say you need to excuse me for a moment, I'm going to walk away for a moment, it's okay for us to say I need a pause in this discussion and I can come back to it in a little bit, because none of us can assume that we can keep everything thinking wise together all at one time.

Speaker 1 36:25

Yeah, the somebody that that you and I would both know because because it is through Concordia came in and she was so, so proud and she did awesome at it and courageous conversation and just going all in on this conflict stuff that she needed to have. And I said, wonderful, how'd it go? And she said I was exhausted. It was two and a half hours and I said, whoa, I'd be exhausted too. I was like I don't know if I could do any of that for more than five, 15 minutes. So here's what you've walked us through. Conflict is necessary and it is good to create healthy relationships, thriving organizations, that we approach it, having conflict about an issue not focused on the human, the individual on the other side, working together in a way to build relationship, into part of our resolution. We ask ourself what's the issue and we make sure that we know what the desired outcome is. What else do we need to know so that we can walk out of here and start courageously engaging in conflict to make relationships and workplaces better?

Speaker 2 37:44

I think the thing that you need to know is that this is a skill. It's not something that just expect to make some mistakes and expect others to be wondering what in the world's happening to you and be okay with that. It is like if you were going to run a marathon. You're not going to go out on the first day and run 26 miles. You've got to build up to those 26 miles you got to. You know, for me, I'd have to, like, run a yard first before I could run. You know much further, and so take the small steps and be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself as you practice these things, but I promise you that practicing these things will begin to release the tension that we feel when conflict arises.

Speaker 2 38:56

I find myself rarely having a spike an emotional spike when there's tension in a room or tension with me and another person, Because I just know that if I take a breath, we will walk through it, and that has come because of having to continue to practice these things. I will promise you that back in my day, I would hit conflict and I would come out of the like like it was a sprint, Like I was, like I was up to the ceiling and, in a heartbeat, um, fighting it, and it is such a relief and such a gift to go. Okay, we'll walk through this and I can be calm, but it's taken a journey to get there. It's taken practice, it's taken people who love me and when I'm there I find that out of the conflict I actually get better results and continue to grow, because the conflict has actually been a benefit and not a harm to me. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 40:03

So I said, I've known Michelle for some time. She is not new in this rodeo and the goal that I had, after getting some great coaching from her, was that I was going to disagree with an idea, an individual or a piece of information every week for six months, and that was a goal that I worked through, and 10 years later, it's still not instinctual. I don't just go around looking for all of these things. Instinctual. I don't just go around looking for all of these things. However, it is much more practiced and it is what is able to be engaged with in a way where I can hold on to the human and still go at whatever the issue is, and so I would encourage all of you to keep up with Michelle, to connect with Michelle Honestly. You just need to come to Concordia University, irvine, so that you can go through a program with Michelle. That would be wonderful. Michelle, before you go, I'm going to ask you, just like I ask everybody else, what does it mean for you to lead well?

Speaker 2 41:08

for you to lead well. For me to lead well is to hold a vision in my hands and then bring people along who I know that they are the ones who are the secret sauce and the success to that vision, and I want to open up opportunities for them, to open up space for them to be able to live their wildest dreams, to live beyond what they ever thought that they could do. Let them have a goal and achieve it and all drive in towards that vision. It is about creating people to be more than what they ever expected they could be.

Speaker 1 41:51

Said by a true leader my friends, have courage, engage in conflict to build relationship through the resolutions that you set together. Thank you so much for being a part of the show today, michelle. I love you, my friend. I can't wait to have you over for dinner and we can start the marathon training. You can chase my three children around our yard and we'll just start there and go from there to everybody listening. Thank you so much. Make sure you check out, michelle, and until we see you next time, be well, lead on and God bless.